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Old 07-10-2001, 09:25 AM   #11
Throbert McGee
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Quote:
Originally posted by Le pede:
<STRONG>As far as I know the only place in the canon in which it appears is the Revelation of John. See Rev. 12:7. But then again, it doesn't mention "1/3."
</STRONG>
But Rev. 12:3-4 has [emphasis added]:

3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth...
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Old 07-10-2001, 09:33 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by offa:
<STRONG>Kind of like the Hebrews intended to use Gentiles in their husbandry thus their private parts were called genitalia.
</STRONG>
Hence the command to "goy forth and multiply"?

P.S. In hoc foro non est trollandum!
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Old 07-10-2001, 01:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Throbert McGee:
<STRONG>

But Rev. 12:3-4 has [emphasis added]:

3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth...</STRONG>
Yes, that is a good point. I wasn't thinking about the symbolism in verse 3, I was focusing on the explicit reference, but it certainly makes sense.

-Brian
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Old 07-10-2001, 06:44 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by marduck:
<STRONG>There is also a 'Book of Noah' & a 'Book of Adam' floating around. </STRONG>
O.K. Marduck, I have "The Book of Giants" in my Amazon shopping cart. I looked for "The book of Adam" and came up with the "book of Joazar" and I added that to the cart, especially, because of a bad review. When fundies say "I read where this book sucks" I buy it.

Now, I want to find the books of Adam and Noah and I want print ... not internet stuff,
if you can help me I would appreciate it.


Thanks, offa

BTW, I enjoy the co-respondents on this thread. Thanks. I apologize for getting off topic. I have read each reply and have read and saved the url's. Interesting!
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Old 07-12-2001, 07:59 AM   #15
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W.E. Crum, "Texts Attributed to Peter of Alexandria"
Journal of Theological Studies 4 (1903) 387-97.

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page 396
'and he gave his hand and raised him up, saying, "Fear not, Daniel, thou man greatly beloved. The Lord hath sent me to thee to tell thee all things about which thou shalt ask. I am Michael, the captain (archistratig) of the host of the Lord."[1] Ye know that there is none greater than M. among the angels; if he is the captain, is it not then (oukoun) he who is the greatest of them all? But let us not bandy ( Pet 1:16, sophizein) words, in the manner of some who take account of the Genesis (genesis)which Enotes composed, to set against the Genesis of Moses, when it says [2] that the Devil (diabolos) was cast out of heaven because of the evil (kakia) which he had brought forth and that Michael was set (kathistanai) in his place, that he might be associated with (synistanai) the just judge (krites), and might be the ambassador (presbeuein) for all creation; for he is good (agathos). What are the words which Sietes in his madness wrote? That [3] after the
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page 397
Lord had created Adam, He said unto Sanatiel, "Come thou too and worship the work of my hands." And he said, "I will not worship; for there is none greater than I excepting thee,' saying (besides?), "I too desire to be equal (isos) to the (MS my) demiurge (demiourgos) and like him." When God had found in him this wickedness (kakia), He caused one of the Cherubim to drag him from (?) the midst of the fiery stones [4] (and) He cast him down upon the earth and with him a multitude of angels besides whom he had deceived. Forthwith God commanded to close (koluein) the place of ascent for a long time, between (them and) the other angels of God, that they should not be able to descend upon the earth.
http://jefferson.village.virginia.ed...ypha/Crum.html

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Old 07-12-2001, 08:18 AM   #16
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The Jewish Encyclopedia Vol 8. 1904 Funk and Wagnalls Co. page 204

"Lucifer: Septuagint translation of Helel [read "Helal"] ben Shabar " =" the brilliant one," " son of the morning"), name of the day, or morning, star, to whose mythical fate that of the King of Babylon is compared in the prophetic vision (Isa. xiv. 12-14). It is obvious that the prophet in attributing to the Babylonian king boastful pride, followed by a fall, borrowed the idea from a popular legend connected with the morning star: and Gunkel ("Schopfung und Chaos," pp. 132-134) is undoubtedly correct when he holds that it represents a Babylonian or Hebrew star-myth similar to the Greek legend of Phaethon. The brilliancy of the morning star, which eclipses all other stars, but is not seen during the night, may easily have given rise to a myth such as was told of Ethana and Zu: he was led by his pride to strive for the highest seat among the star-gods on the northern mountain of the gods (comp. Ezek. xxviii. 14; Ps. xlviii. 3 [A.V. 2] but was hurled down by the supreme ruller of the Babylonian Olympus. Stars were regarded throughout antiquity as living celestial beings (Job xxxviii. 7).

The familiarity of the people of Palestine with such a myth is shown by the legend, localized on Mount Hermon, the nothern mountain of Palestine and possibly the original mountain of the gods in that country, of the fall of the angels under the leadership of Samhazai (the heaven-seizer) and Azael (Enouch, vi. 6 et seq: see Fall of Angels). Another legend represents Samhazai, because he repented of his sin, as being suspended between heaven and earth (like a star) instead of being hurled down to Sheol ( see Midr. Abkir in Yalk. I. 44; Raymond Martin, "Pugio Fidei," pl 564 ). The Lucifer myth was transferred to Satan in the pre-Christian century, as may be learned from Vita Adae et Evae (12) and Slavonic Enouh (xxix. 4, xxxi.4), where Satan- Sataniel (Samael?) is described as having been one of the archangels. Because he contrived "to make his throne higher than the clouds over the earth and resemble 'My power' on high," Satan-Sataniel was hurled down, with his hosts of angels, and since then he as been flying in the air continually above the abyss (comp. Test. Patr., Benjamin, 3; Ephes. Ii.2, vi. 12) Accordingly Tertullian ("Conta Marionem." V. 11, 17) Origen (Ezekiel Opera,"iii. 356), and others, identify Lucifer with Satan, who also is represented as being "cast down from heaven" (Rev. xii. 7,10; comp. Luke x. 18)."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://users.clarkston.com/rcorson/LUCIFER.htm

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Old 07-12-2001, 08:38 AM   #17
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Something interesting, although I cannot verify the validity of the claims:

Pistis Sophia (Faith", Wisdom) A female aeon, one of the greatest in gnostic lore. She is said to have procreated "the superior angels." It was Pistis Sophia who sent the serpent to entice Adam and Eve. [Rf. Mead, "Pistis Sophia".] According to the "Texts of the Saviour", she is the mother of Barbelo.

"One of the aeonial beings who bears the name Sophia ("Wisdom") is of great importance to the Gnostic world view. In the course of her journeyings, Sophia came to emanate from her own being a flawed consciousness, a being who became the creator of the material and psychic cosmos, all of which he created in the image of his own flaw. This being, unaware of his origins, imagined himself to be the ultimate and absolute God. Since he took the already existing divine essence and fashioned it into various forms, he is also called the Demiurgos or "half-maker" There is an authentic half, a true deific component within creation, but it is not recognized by the half-maker and by his cosmic minions, the Archons or "rulers"." [Stephan A. Hoeller (Tau Stephanus, Gnostic Bishop]

"Deity: The Supreme Father God or Supreme God of Truth is remote from human affairs; he is unknowable and undetectable by human senses. She/he created a series of supernatural but finite beings called Aeons. One of these was Sophia, a virgin, who in turn gave birth to an defective, inferior Creator-God, also known as the Demiurge. (Demiurge means "public craftsman" in Greek.) This lower God created the earth and its life forms. This is the God of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament), a deity who was viewed as fundamentally evil, jealous, rigid, lacking in compassion and prone to genocide. The Demiurge "thinks that he is supreme. His pride and incompetence have resulted in the sorry state of the world as we know it, and in the blind and ignorant condition of most of mankind."" Copyright 1996, 1999 & 2000, Author: B.A. Robinson

http://www.sarahsarchangels.com/archangels/queen.html
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Old 07-15-2001, 11:06 PM   #18
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My research, from a Humanist perspective, suggests that ultimately, the notion of a heavenly rebellion of lower angels against the High God is drawn from ancient Babylonian myths. The story is preserved in a myth called Atrahasis by Humanist scholars.
According to this myth, there were originally two groups of gods, those who dwelt in heaven and those who dwelt on earth. The earth-bound gods were assigned to toil day and night without rest to plant,and harvest food for the heaven gods. The toil was back-breaking, making irrigation ditches and clearing them. Eventually it was resolved to rebel. The heaven dwelling gods learned of the up-coming rebellion and nipped it in the bud. It was resolved that the earth-bound gods would no longer be required to toil. One of their compatriots, evidently a ring-leader who hatched the rebellion plot, was slaughtered. His flesh and blood was mixed with clay and man was created. The earthly toil was now imposed on mankind, allowing the earth-bound gods to enter into the Resting of the Heaven-dwelling gods. Forevermore, all the gods would enjoy an eternal Sabbath, free of toil ! This myth is an explanation of why and how man can to be made and what is purpose in life is. He is a servant or slave, made to be a agriculturalist, growing food to feed the gods who now are in heaven.
For details please see my articles on "Sabbath Origins" by accessing http://bibleorigins.homestead.com/index.html and navigating to the OT Menu. Warning- Netscape browsers "hang-up" or "freeze" trying to access my tracker system. Solution- wait 10 seconds, then hit STOP on the Netscape browser bar, allowing the article or page to appear. If not accessible, please advise and I will e-mail the article. My e-mail being mattfeld@mail.pjsnet.com

All the best

Walter
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