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Old 05-30-2001, 09:34 AM   #11
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TrueThinker:
OK......

Can someone please point me to the Bible verse or verses that speak of the earth being flat?
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from the article :
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
While the Bible nowhere states categorically that the earth is flat, numerous Old Testament verses clearly show that the ancient Hebrews were flat-earthers. The Genesis creation story says the earth is covered by a vault (firmament) and that the celestial bodies move inside the vault. This makes no sense unless one assumes that the earth is essentially flat.16 Isaiah wrote that “God sits throned on the vaulted roof of earth, whose inhabitants are like grasshoppers.”17 In the book of Job, Eliphaz the Temanite says God “walks to and fro on the vault of heaven.”18 That the earth was considered essentially flat is clear from Daniel, who said, “I saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth; the tree grew and became strong, reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth’s farthest bounds.”19 This statement makes no sense for spherical earth.

The New Testament also implies a flat earth. For instance, Matthew wrote that “The devil took him [Jesus] to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their glory.”20 From a sufficiently high mountain, one could see all the kingdoms of the world -- if the earth were flat. Finally, Revelation refers to “the four corners of the earth,”21 and corners are not generally associated with spheres.
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Old 05-30-2001, 09:35 AM   #12
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TrueThinker:
OK......

Can someone please point me to the Bible verse or verses that speak of the earth being flat?
</font>
from the article :
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
While the Bible nowhere states categorically that the earth is flat, numerous Old Testament verses clearly show that the ancient Hebrews were flat-earthers. The Genesis creation story says the earth is covered by a vault (firmament) and that the celestial bodies move inside the vault. This makes no sense unless one assumes that the earth is essentially flat.16 Isaiah wrote that “God sits throned on the vaulted roof of earth, whose inhabitants are like grasshoppers.”17 In the book of Job, Eliphaz the Temanite says God “walks to and fro on the vault of heaven.”18 That the earth was considered essentially flat is clear from Daniel, who said, “I saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth; the tree grew and became strong, reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth’s farthest bounds.”19 This statement makes no sense for spherical earth.

The New Testament also implies a flat earth. For instance, Matthew wrote that “The devil took him [Jesus] to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their glory.”20 From a sufficiently high mountain, one could see all the kingdoms of the world -- if the earth were flat. Finally, Revelation refers to “the four corners of the earth,”21 and corners are not generally associated with spheres.
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Old 05-30-2001, 10:08 AM   #13
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by lpetrich:
Church Father Lactantius on the Shape of the Earth (Divine Institutes, 3:24):

How is it with those who imagine that there are antipodes opposite to our footsteps? Do they say anything to the purpose? Or is there any one so senseless as to believe that there are men whose footsteps are higher than their heads? or that the things which with us are in a recumbent position, with them hang in an inverted direction? that the crops and trees grow downwards? that the rains, and snow, and hail fall upwards to the earth? And does any one wonder that hanging gardens are mentioned among the seven wonders of the world, when philosophers make hanging fields, and seas, and cities, and mountains? The origin of this error must also be set forth by us. For they are always deceived in the same manner. For when they have assumed anything false in the commencement of their investigations, led by the resemblance of the truth, they necessarily fall into those things which are its consequences. Thus they fall into many ridiculous things; because those things which are in agreement with false things, must themselves be false. But since they placed confidence in the first, they do not consider the character of those things which follow, but defend them in every way; whereas they ought to judge from those which follow, whether the first are true or false.

The clear implication is that the Earth is flat, because if it was shaped like a ball, the other side (antipodes) would have all these absurd occurrences.
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ahahhaahahahahahaahahahahahahaha, that was written in like the 3d or 4th century. So again you fualt ancietn people for being ancient. Even though the Greeks already knew better, there were still good reasons for thinking the earth was flat in the 3d or fourth century. If you didn't have the math and you didn't have a space program how would you know? There was a way that Aristorchus (I think) discovered the answer, but even that wasn't widely known and isn't necessarily fool proof. So how would you know?

And do you imagine that this is some official creedal statement that all Christians have to beleive? No, it's that guy's opinion. I obviously meant I don't know o fany Chrsitain since 1600 who beleive in a flat earth.
 
Old 05-30-2001, 10:11 AM   #14
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Boro Nut:
Oh. THAT kind or truth!</font>
You think there is no truth of the phsyce? You think there is no truth in fiction? When Huck Finn tears up the peice of paper and resolves to free Jim from Salvery even though he has been told that abolitionists go to hell, and he utters "I'll just go to hell then because it's right!" or words to that effect, you think there is no truth in that? It didnt' happen. There was never a Huck Finn, but is there not truth in what is being conveyed?
 
Old 05-30-2001, 10:14 AM   #15
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thinker:
from the article :
Quote:
While the Bible nowhere states categorically that the earth is flat, numerous Old Testament verses clearly show that the ancient Hebrews were flat-earthers. The Genesis creation story says the earth is covered by a vault (firmament) and that the celestial bodies move inside the vault. This makes no sense unless one assumes that the earth is essentially flat.16 Isaiah wrote that “God sits throned on the vaulted roof of earth, whose inhabitants are like grasshoppers.”17 In the book of Job, Eliphaz the Temanite says God “walks to and fro on the vault of heaven.”18 That the earth was considered essentially flat is clear from Daniel, who said, “I saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth; the tree grew and became strong, reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth’s farthest bounds.”19 This statement makes no sense for spherical earth.

The New Testament also implies a flat earth. For instance, Matthew wrote that “The devil took him [Jesus] to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their glory.”20 From a sufficiently high mountain, one could see all the kingdoms of the world -- if the earth were flat. Finally, Revelation refers to “the four corners of the earth,”21 and corners are not generally associated with spheres.
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Why is it that sketpics forget everything they learned in English class when they look at the bible. I assume you have taken an English class in school?
 
Old 05-30-2001, 10:18 AM   #16
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thinker:
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/crea-fe.htm

I feel sorry for these people - not just because they believe a load of rubbish, but because in a way they at least deserve some respect for having a consistent methodology, something which most creationists are woefully lacking. The fact that it is a consistently idiotic methodology is unfortunate.

Any creationists out there should read this and take a good look in the mirror.

It is an amusing read anyway; I particularly liked the reference to :

"Geocentrist J.R.L. Lange, author of 'The Copernican System, the Greatest Absurdity in the History of Human Thought"'

This could be straight out of an entry in the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy, except for the fact that this book was actually written.

Poor flat-earthers.

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Meta =&gt;Why would you expect the OT to be a science text book? God didnt tell them about nuclear fission, why should he tell them about the shape of the earth? Why expect the Bible to have scientific truth in it? Why is that important? That's for man to disocover and it was largely though the efforts of Christians that he did discover it. But why should the Bible tell him about it? The Bible assumes the cultural background and environment of the ancient world for exactly the reason I speak of in the thread on redaction; because revelation isnt just a booming voice demanding ver batem dictation it's a human record of people's experiences of God.

It's not a sicence text book. Why should it be?


But there are also verses where it says, in Job, God sits above the circle of the earth which could imply that it's round.
 
Old 05-30-2001, 11:49 AM   #17
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Metacrock - your claim that no Christians have believed in a flat earth since the 17th century is ridiculous. They believe it allright and they are just the people at the very far end of the YEC and creationist movements, just as you are at the liberal end. They are your brothers. Why do you disown them?

I assume you failed to read the article. Your reaction is precisely what is documented in the paper. Most YECS look down on the the flat-earthers just as you look down on the YECS and just as those of us that realise the whole shebang is a load of nonsense look down on YOU.

 
Old 05-30-2001, 11:54 AM   #18
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[LP on Lactantius on the absurdity of the roundness of the Earth; from the http://www.newadvent.org translation]

Metacrock: ahahhaahahahahahaahahahahahahaha, that was written in like the 3d or 4th century. So again you fualt ancietn people for being ancient. Even though the Greeks already knew better, there were still good reasons for thinking the earth was flat in the 3d or fourth century. If you didn't have the math and you didn't have a space program how would you know? There was a way that Aristorchus (I think) discovered the answer, but even that wasn't widely known and isn't necessarily fool proof. So how would you know?

LP: Lactantius was someone who was in a position to appreciate the demonstration that the Earth is shaped like a ball; he makes a lot of mention of pagan philosophers and their beliefs. Yet he laughed instead of trying to understand.

And Aristarchus of Samos was one of the first to propose Copernicanism, not round-earthism; we don't know who came up with the round-Earth hypothesis, but Aristotle does state it clearly in _On the Heavens_ (available online).

Metacrock: Why is it that sketpics forget everything they learned in English class when they look at the bible. I assume you have taken an English class in school?

LP: What was I supposed to have learned in English class?

Metacrock: Why would you expect the OT to be a science text book? God didnt tell them about nuclear fission, why should he tell them about the shape of the earth? Why expect the Bible to have scientific truth in it? Why is that important?

LP: Where is the disclaimer in the Bible that states all this? Why doesn't the Biblical God warn his worshippers that some parts of His Book are not meant literally? If I was a god, I certainly would not want to be misunderstood. Would you?

Metacrock: That's for man to disocover and it was largely though the efforts of Christians that he did discover it.

LP: Who worked it out from the Bible, right? I'd like to see how one comes up with nuclear fission from the Bible.

Metacrock: But why should the Bible tell him about it? The Bible assumes the cultural background and environment of the ancient world for exactly the reason I speak of in the thread on redaction; because revelation isnt just a booming voice demanding ver batem dictation it's a human record of people's experiences of God.

LP: Very ingenious. And I note that the Bible itself features a "booming voice demanding verbatim dictation" in some places; IMO, it's a more efficient and less ambiguous form of revelation.

Metacrock: It's not a sicence text book. Why should it be?

LP: Tell that to your friendly neighborhood fundamentalist some time. To a fundamentalist, the Bible is true, and that's that. Without such convoluted qualifications. Which makes fundamentalism a wonderfully simple creed.
 
Old 05-30-2001, 11:58 AM   #19
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Metacrock: But there are also verses where it says, in Job, God sits above the circle of the earth which could imply that it's round.

LP: However, the Book of Revelation states that the Earth has four corners.
 
Old 05-30-2001, 12:37 PM   #20
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by lpetrich:
Metacrock: But there are also verses where it says, in Job, God sits above the circle of the earth which could imply that it's round.

LP: However, the Book of Revelation states that the Earth has four corners.
</font>
So "four corners" must mean it's speaking of the shape of the earth? Anyway provide the specific verses in Revelation and let's see exactly what they're talking about.
 
 

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