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Old 02-09-2001, 03:16 PM   #11
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You missed my point, a_theist. I'm saying if the great sin of the Babel builders wasn't their ignorance of the limits of engineering, but their arrogance at thinking they could scale the heavens -- then I can think of similar arrogance displayed many times since that alleged event that did not engender a likewise wrathful response. The jingoistic race to the Moon, for example, which also parallels the Babel episode by mankind striving to set an altitude record. A record, I might point out, that is a quarter-million miles higher than any mud-brick ziggurat could have achieved.
 
Old 02-09-2001, 03:35 PM   #12
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Well, look at the ruskies today...I guess that just means that we are "God's Chosen Nation".
dripping sarcasm.
USA must have had "good pride" unlike the evil communists who had bad pride. That must be why we speak "American" instead of russian.

Please, don't cut and paste this: it is for entertainment purposes only, and commenting on it only degrades you.
 
Old 02-09-2001, 06:15 PM   #13
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JragonFli:
Fundamentalists believe that the bible is true, word for word. Was heaven lower back then, so that a man-made tower reached "heaven"? How can anyone take this story to be anything but a myth? And a silly myth at that! Where is the ruins of this supposed tower? What country does it exist in?
Did these ancient people built a tower taller than sky-scrapers? If it wasn't taller, how come god hasn't complained about our buildings obstructing the view?
I challenge anyone to come up with PROOF that the Tower of Bable existed.
</font>
Does the Bible ever claim that they finished building it? Or does it say they wanted to build a tower that reached the heavens? Didn't God confuse their languages before they ever got a chance to complete their 'project'?
 
Old 02-09-2001, 06:30 PM   #14
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a_theist, The implications of the Tower of Babel story (Gen 11:1-9) are clear. The Hebrew god was afraid that the builders would build a tower to the heavens. There is no evidence that sarcasm was intended, and for someone to argue this is to pull an interpretative tactic out of thin air.
 
Old 02-09-2001, 06:30 PM   #15
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Well, that would imply that they were punnished for trying to reach the heavens, not for actually doing it. If they didn't reach the heavens, and they couldn't reach the heavens, why did god care so much about an over ambitious building project? These people never even claimed to believe in "that" god, so why did he care?
 
Old 02-10-2001, 01:46 AM   #16
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JragonFli:
Well, that would imply that they were punnished for trying to reach the heavens, not for actually doing it. If they didn't reach the heavens, and they couldn't reach the heavens, why did god care so much about an over ambitious building project? These people never even claimed to believe in "that" god, so why did he care?</font>
This transcription of an inscription accredited to Nebuchadnezzar was made by William Loftus in his book "Travels and Researches in Chaldea and Sinai":
"The tower, the eternal house, which I founded and built.
"I have completed its magnificence with silver, gold, other metals, stone, enamelled bricks, fir and pine.
"The first which is the house of the earth's house, the most ancient monument of Babylon; I built and finished it.
I" have highly exalted its head with bricks covered with copper.
"We say for the other, that is, this edifice, the house of the seven lights of the earth, the most ancient monument of Barzippa(meaning in Chalea "tongue-tower"-)
"A former king built it...but he did not complete its head.
"Since a remote time, people had abandoned it, without order expressing their words.
"Since that time the earthquake and the thunder had dispersed the sun-dried clay..."(etc. etc.)
IT is supposed that Nebuchadnezzar built his "eternal house" in Babylon on the remains of the "borsippa"(tongue-tower) where people from a remote time had abandoned it, "without order expressing their words." As I recall there are also stories about this Tower and the confounding of languages by another god in some Babylonian chronicles-
I don't want to get into too much detail because at best this would prove that Nebuchadnezzar believed he was building this house on the remains of the unfinished Tower of Babel- and his belief of that would not prove it to neccesarily be that tower... so I don't know how much can be gained from researching this further.
Also a key note is that the people were all together and of "one language"- obviously there is no problem with the USSR and the USA fighting for their place on the moon, since it is a struggle between two nations.
Gen 1:28 holds God's divine command to fill the earth. Adam's descendents didn't do this (and many suffered in violence ultimately because of it-and for the evil in their hearts) and neither did the folks after Noah. Scattering them was God's way of accomplishing His long-ago command. like: "If you're not going to do it(fill the Earth), I'll have to help you."

 
Old 02-10-2001, 06:20 PM   #17
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It sounds to me like you just gave proof that the old testament is a compolation of adopted legends and stories. The hebrews were captives in Babylon, and it is aparent that much of their culture is borrowed rather than original. The story of the "Great Flood" is another Babylonian myth that was adopted and converted into a Jewish object lesson.
 
Old 02-11-2001, 12:50 AM   #18
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JragonFli:
It sounds to me like you just gave proof that the old testament is a compolation of adopted legends and stories. The hebrews were captives in Babylon, and it is aparent that much of their culture is borrowed rather than original. The story of the "Great Flood" is another Babylonian myth that was adopted and converted into a Jewish object lesson. </font>
I maintain that Genesis was written some hundreds of years previous to the Babylonian captivity, so no. But I cannot say your response is surprising. We see similar attacks on the gospels. "If they agree, they are all obviously ripping off a Q document or Mark etc. If they have different stories or numbers of individuals in these stories they are 'contradictory' and prove that 'none of these events ever happened.'" Right.It's a no-winner one way or the other.
Could it be a true story passed on in more than one tradition by the descendents of the people who were there? Sure. So why would take the leap of unbelief over faith in this instance?

[This message has been edited by a_theistnotatheist (edited February 11, 2001).]
 
Old 02-11-2001, 09:11 AM   #19
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The story is obviously a myth. It has an anthropomorphic god that goes down to see what the humans are doing. It has Yhwh being worried that the men will build a ziggurat to the heavens. Why should Yhwh be worried about that? Because since the sky is a solid firmament, it is reachable by man.

Also, when something looks like a myth, it's usually classified a myth--when it contains mythic elements and themes. If you want every ancient myth to be considered fact, go right ahead. But scholars do not exempt Bible stories from analysis just because some people believe the Tower of Babel story is true.
 
Old 02-12-2001, 03:40 PM   #20
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Le pede:
The story is obviously a myth. It has an anthropomorphic god that goes down to see what the humans are doing. It has Yhwh being worried that the men will build a ziggurat to the heavens. Why should Yhwh be worried about that? Because since the sky is a solid firmament, it is reachable by man.

Also, when something looks like a myth, it's usually classified a myth--when it contains mythic elements and themes. If you want every ancient myth to be considered fact, go right ahead. But scholars do not exempt Bible stories from analysis just because some people believe the Tower of Babel story is true.
</font>
I have no problem with that. The Tower of Babel story is not a very significant one to me- ultimately it is a good moral on the power of God over the nations- after all, who scattered who? Interestingly that this is one of the few stories in Genesis that has no latter mention in the rest of the Bible, either OT or NT. That is a kind of unique thing in comparison to the Flood, Sodom and Gemorrah, etc.
 
 

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