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Old 06-23-2001, 08:49 PM   #21
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Amen-Moses:
No, if anyone knew with absolute certainty that you would drop the pen then you could not choose not to drop the pen.

Amen-Moses
</font>
I disagree-I would drop the pen, but only because I chose to. Just because someone knows with certainty that we will do something does not mean we do not choose to do it.
 
Old 06-23-2001, 09:01 PM   #22
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Non-praying Mantis:
The certainty you refer to is lack of doubt. Hypothetically, I could have absolutely no doubt that the world was flat. The world is actually round. That means that I am wrong, but I still have no doubts. In the real world, I have no doubt that the world is round, therefore I am 100% certain that the world is round. Of course, the world IS round. So I happen to be right in this case.
If God was 100% certain that I would do action A, and instead I do action ~A, then God would be wrong.

NPM

</font>
Right. If we do ~A, then God would be wrong. But the fact that we can even CONSIDER ~A is evidence that we have a free will. The fact that God knows perfectly free of doubt which we will do does not remove free will. Biblical prophecy and free-will, then, do not appear to be logically contradictory at all.
 
Old 06-23-2001, 09:54 PM   #23
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James,
See the Tree of Knowledge thread for a recent discussion of free will.
 
Old 06-24-2001, 07:04 PM   #24
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by pfypher:
Right. If we do ~A, then God would be wrong. But the fact that we can even CONSIDER ~A is evidence that we have a free will. The fact that God knows perfectly free of doubt which we will do does not remove free will. Biblical prophecy and free-will, then, do not appear to be logically contradictory at all. </font>
If we can only CONSIDER doing ~A, but we cannot actually DO ~A, and our only possibility for action is A, then we DO NOT have free will. That is, we only have one possible action. Just because a prisoner can CONSIDER walking outside of the jail cell, does not mean that he CAN walk outside the jail cell, and is not FREE.

NPM
 
Old 06-25-2001, 06:38 PM   #25
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Non-praying Mantis:
If we can only CONSIDER doing ~A, but we cannot actually DO ~A, and our only possibility for action is A, then we DO NOT have free will. That is, we only have one possible action. Just because a prisoner can CONSIDER walking outside of the jail cell, does not mean that he CAN walk outside the jail cell, and is not FREE.

NPM
</font>
NPM, I think I may have identified our problem while I was painting today. Let me know if you disagree.

I think that our opinions differ on who are action is contingent on. You are arguing that because God knows we are going to do action A, we are going to do it. Therefore, we have no free-will. However, the actual case is that we are going to do action A and so God knows it. God's knowledge of our decision is contingent upon our decision, not our decision upon His knowledge. That is, I believe, the central difference in our viewpoints. Because I believe God's knowledge is contingent upon our action, then we certainly can have free-will and Biblical prophecy. The two are entirely free of contradiction.
 
Old 06-25-2001, 07:23 PM   #26
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A problem ... IFF you have an indeterminist view of free-will.
 
Old 06-25-2001, 07:41 PM   #27
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by pfypher:
NPM, I think I may have identified our problem while I was painting today. Let me know if you disagree.

I think that our opinions differ on who are action is contingent on. You are arguing that because God knows we are going to do action A, we are going to do it. Therefore, we have no free-will. However, the actual case is that we are going to do action A and so God knows it. God's knowledge of our decision is contingent upon our decision, not our decision upon His knowledge. That is, I believe, the central difference in our viewpoints. Because I believe God's knowledge is contingent upon our action, then we certainly can have free-will and Biblical prophecy. The two are entirely free of contradiction.
</font>
You are probably not suprised that I disagree with you, I do. However, it is not belief in this case that is the problem. The problem happens to be cause and effect. You say that God's knowledge is contingent on us doing action A, but that is not the correct order of events.
Remember, God is supposed to know everything that we will do before we are born. That means God knows if we "choose" A or not ahead of time. Therefore, we cannot do ~A if God knew that we would do A (or vice versa), unless God is not omniscient.
Perhaps God does not follow the normal rules of cause and effect, but this means that God does not follow normal rules of logic, and this argument is moot!
Anyway, it is not my belief that God is omniscient and we have no free will(it is also not my belief that God exists, but humor me here). It is my belief that God is not omniscient and that we do have free will. Why does God have to be omniscient anyway?

NPM



[This message has been edited by Non-praying Mantis (edited June 25, 2001).]
 
Old 06-25-2001, 10:05 PM   #28
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Non-praying Mantis:
You are probably not suprised that I disagree with you, I do. However, it is not belief in this case that is the problem. The problem happens to be cause and effect. You say that God's knowledge is contingent on us doing action A, but that is not the correct order of events.
Remember, God is supposed to know everything that we will do before we are born. That means God knows if we "choose" A or not ahead of time. Therefore, we cannot do ~A if God knew that we would do A (or vice versa), unless God is not omniscient.
Perhaps God does not follow the normal rules of cause and effect, but this means that God does not follow normal rules of logic, and this argument is moot!
Anyway, it is not my belief that God is omniscient and we have no free will(it is also not my belief that God exists, but humor me here). It is my belief that God is not omniscient and that we do have free will. Why does God have to be omniscient anyway?

NPM

[This message has been edited by Non-praying Mantis (edited June 25, 2001).]
</font>
As a "traditional" Christian, it is very easy to refute this argument with the traditional view that God is outside of time. God will not know "before" we do an action. In fact, to speak of "before" and "after" with God, who I believe is outside of time is nonsensical. God merely knows. This still allows for human free-will because He doesn't know "before" we do our action. He merely knows that we do our action. However, I think that your question as to why God HAS to be omniscient is an excellent one. The idea of God's omniscience and what that means has come under review as of late in Christian theology circles. The critique has been led mainly by William Lane Craig....their view, if I understand it correctly, is that God is actually inside of time and that His omniscience consists of knowing every future contingent. In other words, He knows every possibility of the course of all human action. Honestly, I am undecided as to where I stand on this, but both positions allow for a human free-will. I will post later on my thoughts as to why He has to be omniscient. It is an excellent question.

Peace.
pfypher
 
Old 06-26-2001, 12:29 AM   #29
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by pfypher:
As a "traditional" Christian, it is very easy to refute this argument with the traditional view that God is outside of time. God will not know "before" we do an action. In fact, to speak of "before" and "after" with God, who I believe is outside of time is nonsensical. God merely knows. This still allows for human free-will because He doesn't know "before" we do our action. He merely knows that we do our action. </font>
This doesn't work for me. We as humans are within time and all of our actions take place at a certain time, so I don't see how you can pull the "God is outside of time" card. The question doesn't revolve around God, it revolves around a human action, which must take place in time.

God is omniscient, that means he knows everything.
Tomorrow I will either eat lunch A or lunch B. I don't know which until that time.
God, by his omniscient definition, knows which lunch I will eat.
Is it possible for me to eat the other lunch??

 
Old 06-26-2001, 01:27 AM   #30
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Hi oriecat,
A segment of one of my posts from the recent (and still active but on a tangent) Tree of Knowledge thread:
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">But the argument that God knows things in advance and therefore they are not free, relies on some faulty trans-time logic which I'm trying to demonstrate.
Let us set up a system. First we have a world in time in which people have entirely free will to make their decisions. Secondly we have a being outside of time which observes that world. What causes the people to act the way they do? Is it the being outside of time which merely observes? No, of course not, it is the free will with which they made their decisions in the first place.
At every point in time on the world it would be true to say about that Being "that Being knows all that ever happens in the world of time, it knows what happened in the past, and it knows what will happen in the future". Yet this Being's knowledge in no way pre-determines the future, the future is still entirely determined by the actions of the people in the world.

Because God is outside of time, he knows all that happens within time. Does he know events "before" they happen? Or "after" they happen? Or "while" they happen? Of course not, God is not in time and therefore none of these words can possibly be applied to him. God simply "knows" all events. And at any point within time we can state that God is all-knowing. But this of course implies nothing about whether events are pre-determined - they may well be, but this conclusion is not forced from God's omniscience.</font>
-Tercel
 
 

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