Freethought & Rationalism Archive

06-19-2001, 07:07 AM

Oh � and if you are of the belief that Paul chose to omit things or change things due to political and social pressure exerted by the Mighty Roman Empire (as you stated that you are in agreement with me) then by all means please support your position that this (and other erroneous things in the bible) are the TRUE (meaning not false, altered or other wise manipulated for the sinful purposes of man) word of this god?

06-19-2001, 06:11 PM

Notice also how Christians refuse to address the hypocrisy question. It's ok for them to say, "well slavery was a different concept back then," but when someone says, "well homosexuality was a different concept back then" they scream: "NO! Only we can explain things away using historical differences!"

06-20-2001, 04:36 AM

"Many of the laws in the OT are flat out barbaric and immoral, and it is the Christian God that ordered these laws. These laws were NEVER OK, whether back then or now."

I agree! I would also just liker to remind the Chrisitians that the "God" in the OT was JESUS too! (Trinity) So it was Jesus who was slaughtering people back then.

Christians love to quote Jesus as being into "foregiveness". He said for us to foregive 70x7 times, which is a lifetime for us humans. But God cannot foregive us if we don't believe a certain way, He punishes us for eternity. God/Jesus are the embodiment of unforegiveness and hypocrisy!

Don't forget that Jesus himself admonished the Pharisees for not stoning disobedient children to death and changing "the law". I just don't see Jesus as a nice God or a nice guy.

Lastly, Paul says that even effeminate men are bound for Hell - not homosexuals, but effeminate. I know several Christians who are effeminate and are not gay or bi, I guess they are headed south too!

The bumper sticker that says: "Mean People Suck!" must have been written for the Bible God!

06-20-2001, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by britinusa:
It really is amazing that xians so casually dismiss the OT. Pick up a bible, find the beginning of the NT, hold the book open and compare the two testaments. I think you'll find the OT is three times the size of the NT, so in effect you are discarding three quarters of the bible.
This clearly proves that we atheists are winning the battle. Only another 25% to go, guys

Take care

Martin

06-20-2001, 01:55 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by brighid:
[B]Well, then � answer me this question � Can the Christ god err? Does he lack perfection or is god/Christ a perfect being, without sin that guided, through the aide of the Holy Spirit all the writers of the bible? Please clarify your flavor of Christian belief and please provide the denomination you belong to so we may debate this from the �proper� Christian perspective. I think this is going to be a whole lot of fun!

John 1:1 & 14, Col. 2:9 - Non-Denominational

06-20-2001, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fred pratt:

Not having spent a lot of time on this forum, I suppose what follows has been flogged about to death. If that's the case, and you're so inclined, slug it a few more times. If not, as you were. . .

As is the case with so many other issues, I'm constantly amazed at the dishonest practice of so many Christians who use scripture selectively to affirm their personal biases. Homosexuality is a prime example. The usual chapter and verse suspects include Leviticus 18:22:

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination."

It's sure tough to misinterpret THAT! But why don't I ever see many of the other verses from Leviticus cited with comparable righteous indignation? For example, just two chapters later, Leviticus 20:10 says:

"If a man commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death."

Now, I'm no biblical scholar, but, in terms of clarity, as with Leviticus 18:22, the death penalty for adultery couldn't be ordered more plainly than that. Again, no confusion or misinterpretation possible. So, it would only seem logical and honest to me that those who spend so much time railing against homosexuality should spend at least as much time and energy trying to get legislation passed to execute convicted adulteres. To avoid doing so is the height of hypocrisy, is it not? And if there was one word that Jesus used throughout the gospels to castigate his enemies, it was "hypocrite" -- "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES..." Sound familiar?

God, speaking through the author of Leviticus, also wants us to kill folks who dishonor their parents, and on and on. Tons of nasty stuff. But, I guess if we're going to be good Christians and believe homosexuality is an abomination, we've got to be honest and believe the whole Leviticus laundry list, don't we? Or am I missing something?

And, of course, the problem isn't limited to just the Old Testament. As all Bible students know, the great and illustrious, self-appointed apostle Paul -- the quintessential theologian/Christologist -- is pretty specific about homosexuality being an affront to God in Romans 1:26-27. Discussing "those who suppress the truth by their wickedness", Paul says:

"Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity."

Again, pretty hard to misunderstand that.
But, this same Paul, in his letter to Titus, is more than just a little loosey-goosey on the subject of slavery.

Paul had left his sidekick, Titus, on the island of Crete to "straighten out what was left unfinished..." In a subsequent letter to Titus, Paul tells him to straighten out slaves as follows:

"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not steal from them but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive."

Yeah, right. If the Bible is REALLY the "Word of God", and "our Savior", Jesus, is God, and God is speaking through Paul, that particular passage sure does make God's teaching sound attractive all right, doesn't it? Makes one wonder how, in the slave markets in America in, say, the 1820s, a black mother should have reacted as she was sold to a particular bidder, and her children were separated from her, and one another, and sold individually to other bidders. I guess she should have tried to "please" her master. She shouldn't even have "talked back" according to the infallible Christian authority, Paul.

Oh, well, just because I see blatant hypocricy everywhere in certain Christian denominations today, and just because I'm at a loss to reconcile it with the teachings of Jesus, the very man who Christians of all stripes worship, it doesn't for a minute mean it all can't be reconciled. In fact, I'm fairly sure that within 24 hours there'll be answers right here on this thread that will explain it all to me in terms even I can understand. Then again, maybe not.

06-20-2001, 02:09 PM

John 1:1 & John 1:14,Col.2:9 - I'm Non-Denominational. ALL Scripture is GOD breathed. 2 Tim. 3:16.

Quote:

Originally posted by brighid:
Well, then � answer me this question � Can the Christ god err? Does he lack perfection or is god/Christ a perfect being, without sin that guided, through the aide of the Holy Spirit all the writers of the bible? Please clarify your flavor of Christian belief and please provide the denomination you belong to so we may debate this from the �proper� Christian perspective. I think this is going to be a whole lot of fun!

Brighid

06-21-2001, 07:18 AM

Codknocker, do you speak tongues in your worship?

06-21-2001, 12:23 PM

codnocker - Why must one be NON-DENOMINATIONAL? And how is the NON-DENOM belief different from the Denominational beliefs of the Baptist, the Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopalian, etc?

Certainly, you aren't suggesting that by being Non-denominational you are devoid of the perils that plague all the other denominations of Christianity? Oh - that's right, you are a denomination - just a NON!

Brighid

06-22-2001, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brighid:
how is the NON-DENOM belief different from the Denominational beliefs of the Baptist, the Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopalian, etc?

I'll bet codnocker doesn't speak with an accent, either.

ObOnTopic: I greatly admire this essay in which a self-described "dirty hippie liberal Christian" attacks the notion that there is something innately wrong with homosexual acts. The author deserves applause for several reasons:

1) He doesn't pussy out by saying (as, e.g., doctrinaire Catholics do) that it's okay to be gay as long as you're celibate;

2) Yet he avoids the intellectually lazy position of saying that any consensual expression of sexuality is okay -- rather, he suggests simply that, while you can make moral judgments about sexual behaviors, the gender(s) of the participants must be deemed morally irrelevant;

3) Though he doesn't acknowledge the obvious joke, ya gotta love that his case rests in part on Matthew 15:11 -- "not what goes into the mouth defiles a man..."

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-19-2001, 07:07 AM	#41
Guest Posts: n/a	Oh � and if you are of the belief that Paul chose to omit things or change things due to political and social pressure exerted by the Mighty Roman Empire (as you stated that you are in agreement with me) then by all means please support your position that this (and other erroneous things in the bible) are the TRUE (meaning not false, altered or other wise manipulated for the sinful purposes of man) word of this god?

06-19-2001, 06:11 PM	#42
Guest Posts: n/a	Notice also how Christians refuse to address the hypocrisy question. It's ok for them to say, "well slavery was a different concept back then," but when someone says, "well homosexuality was a different concept back then" they scream: "NO! Only we can explain things away using historical differences!"

06-20-2001, 04:36 AM	#43
Guest Posts: n/a	"Many of the laws in the OT are flat out barbaric and immoral, and it is the Christian God that ordered these laws. These laws were NEVER OK, whether back then or now." I agree! I would also just liker to remind the Chrisitians that the "God" in the OT was JESUS too! (Trinity) So it was Jesus who was slaughtering people back then. Christians love to quote Jesus as being into "foregiveness". He said for us to foregive 70x7 times, which is a lifetime for us humans. But God cannot foregive us if we don't believe a certain way, He punishes us for eternity. God/Jesus are the embodiment of unforegiveness and hypocrisy! Don't forget that Jesus himself admonished the Pharisees for not stoning disobedient children to death and changing "the law". I just don't see Jesus as a nice God or a nice guy. Lastly, Paul says that even effeminate men are bound for Hell - not homosexuals, but effeminate. I know several Christians who are effeminate and are not gay or bi, I guess they are headed south too! The bumper sticker that says: "Mean People Suck!" must have been written for the Bible God!

06-20-2001, 01:55 PM	#45
Guest Posts: n/a	[QUOTE]Originally posted by brighid: [B]Well, then � answer me this question � Can the Christ god err? Does he lack perfection or is god/Christ a perfect being, without sin that guided, through the aide of the Holy Spirit all the writers of the bible? Please clarify your flavor of Christian belief and please provide the denomination you belong to so we may debate this from the �proper� Christian perspective. I think this is going to be a whole lot of fun! John 1:1 & 14, Col. 2:9 - Non-Denominational

06-21-2001, 07:18 AM	#48
Guest Posts: n/a	Codknocker, do you speak tongues in your worship?

06-21-2001, 12:23 PM	#49
Guest Posts: n/a	codnocker - Why must one be NON-DENOMINATIONAL? And how is the NON-DENOM belief different from the Denominational beliefs of the Baptist, the Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopalian, etc? Certainly, you aren't suggesting that by being Non-denominational you are devoid of the perils that plague all the other denominations of Christianity? Oh - that's right, you are a denomination - just a NON! Brighid

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.