You shouldn't assume that because I and others atheists writing on this topic don't give equally or even more than your church does. I have personally helped hundreds of people "earn" millions of dollars. I do not give fishes away as your church does, not that I have spoken against that yet, but I do prefer to truly help people get back on their own feet by assisting and teaching them to do it themselves rather than by throwing scraps of food at them like the Government programs and most do good churches. That doesn't fix the problem, it only keeps them down and out.

Your churches do it with the motivation to CONVERT people while they are at their weakest. Their motive is skewed, wrong, and shameful. If it were for the right reasons, the individual people of the church would do it on their own, without the Flag of their church and brainwashing techniques leading the crusade.

Shame on you Christians. Tithing 10% monthly is one of the most ignorant teachings of financial responsibility the Bible teaches. It one again, shows its error in basic financial knowledge.

You already explained you don't have a clue as to why, which is the same basic ignorance shown by the misinformed writer of the Bible.

Lance

Its called rice bowl charity. And if a person is hungry enough, desparate enough, they'll do anything.

No strings attached charity I can respect. Strings, which will cost you your mind and money later, are most despised.

CTME and Lance, your put-downs remind of racial comments that are made out of ignorance and fear. You do not seem to understand Christian's true motives and you seem almost afraid.

Look, Christians would like for everyone to accept Jesus. However, what you are saying makes it sound as if we dangle food over the heads of needy people, torturing them until they convert. Give me a break. The gifts we give have absolutely no strings attached. We give from the goodness of our hearts because that is what we believe that Jesus would have done. It seems almost criminal of you to suggest that our helping people in need is a bad thing!

As to the tax exempt thing Lance, that really seems to me to be a twisting of the facts. Yes, possibly you pay something (what maybe half a cent) in property taxes that you might rather not pay. Well, I'm sure if I tried that I could find some not for profit organization that I wouldn't want to support (like maybe the Church of Scientology and its property). Well, this is a Democracy the people of our country have decided to set up a system this way possibly because we know that many if not most of the not for profit organizations benefit society in some way. So you see, its not just you that might have a problem with what you have to pay for, but if you don't like it then vote for change.

CTME, we Christians don't hide behind the church in our giving. My wife and I among others do things outside the church as well. It's not nice of you to talk down charitable contributions to society. I won't make any more assumptions, but I will say that I hope you do give to those in need as well (and not wait 30 years until you've built up enough money to do so and still have plenty left over to make you comfortable).

By the way, it's fine to help people get back on their feet and get a job (that's great actually), but in some countries (possibly in some cases in our country) that we support that isn't possible. Some people in other countries will simply starve to death without help.

And the strings attached comment... That is really mean-spirited to even suggest...

Ish

Ish, if you really believed what you just wrote, you would need to do what Jesus instructed you to do. Give ALL your money and worldly goods away to the poor etc. and don't worry about tomorrow, for God will provide for you.

Yes, you can put off giving for 30 years and be giving in a correct way according to your newly revised Bible interpretations (since you don't follow Jesus' comands to give ALL you have now).

Do atheists really assume that all Christians tithe? *LOL* Wow. It's one of those dirty little secrets we Christians keep... many Christians do what they can to get OUT of tithing and so many pastors are afraid to preach on it for losing their flock. Our covetous and greedy culture definately has an influence on us thinking we need to have so much stuff...

Tithing isn't as much about how the church needs money and we have to support it as much as it is about acknowledging that everything we have belongs to God. By giving 10% to the local church we are giving it back to Him for his MAIN purpose, which is to let the world know about him. Part of evangelism is just in deed... using the money to help people with no strings attached is an example.

Tithing does help to financially support the church, but it also helps to set our minds and hearts straight as to God's priorities and control. Most people who have problems with tithing have problems with God being in control and not them. A cheerful giver is a humble person.

I noticed in your calculations there's no mention of God's ability to bless those who give. Considering how much God has blessed my family and friends when we give (NOT just with good feelings, I'm talking financial blessings) I'd have to say that God has his own interest rate and the return is pretty awsome.

************
Our church does invest some of the money it makes and gets a pretty good return. We also give to outside charities as well as help support the ones we are involved in.

***********
The reason the government gives tax breaks to non-profit organizations NO MATTER WHAT THEIR AFFILIATION has as to do with the good that these organizations do as well as the basic concept of FREEDOM. In Romania (I think that's the country I heard this about) it's against the law to give more than 1 or 2% of what you make to a charity. This prevents people from organizing against the government, but it also leaves Christians looking for loop holes to figure out how to make it to 10% as God commands.

So, while American Christians who have so much MORE financially are looking for loop holes in God's law so they don't HAVE to give, Romanians who have considerably less than us are looking for loop holes in Man's law so they CAN give. The world is a very strange place.

Imagine if there were no tax-exempt status or if there were guidelines of affiliation you had to follow... Churches wouldn't be the only ones to suffer, any non-profit organization could come under attack with restrictions to what they could and couldn't do and then be finacially incapable of supporting themselves if they didn't follow the guidelines. That would severely limit the freedoms we enjoy in this country.

Epitome

[This message has been edited by Epitome (edited May 20, 2001).]

CTME, I believe what I wrote and Jesus did not say give away ALL you have. This is an error.

I know exactly what you're referring to, but you've missed the whole point. When Jesus told the rich man to go and sell everything he had and follow, he was pointing out that they man valued his riches over serving God. The man's money meant much more to him than doing what was right. If you are going to teach Bible lessons to Christians, then you, please, need to look at the entire context.

Ish

This line, which is pretty common among Christians when trying tell people why they
should give, has always struck me as a falacy and a bit of a contradiction.

Basically, you're asking people to adopt the
attitude that they shouldn't care so much
about money, and be willing to give it to
the Church. Then you follow it with a "but
when you give, you'll get it back with interest", which immediately appeals the
the subconsious greed of people. IT's a promise that by giving money to God (which
you're not supposed to care about - the money
that is) God will somehow make you financially more successful. Doesn't this strike you as odd?

Also, I've never quite figured out how it is
*financially* that you get it back with interest? If you're talking about the tax
break for charities, well, you only deduct
a percentage, and besides that's the Gov
helping you out there ( ;-) ). If you're
talking about benefits of being a part of
the "Good ol' boy" network of fellow Christians (epitomized by the Mormans),
then that's another thing, but not exactly
from God.

Can you give me examples of how it is your
tithing is being paid back to you (financially) with interest? Does God base
it off the prime rate? :-)

Perhaps you can give me an "epitomal" example?

Thanks.

OLD Ballads sing of Chevy Chase,
Beneath whose rueful shade,
Full many a valiant man was slain
And many a widow made.

But I will tell of one much worse,
That happ'd in days of yore,
All in the barren wilderness,
Beside the Jordan shore,

Where Moses led the children forth,
Call'd chosen tribes of God,
And fed them forty years with quails,
And ruled them with a rod.

A dreadful fray once rose among
These self-named tribes of I Am;
Where Korah fell, and by his side
Fell Dathan and Abiram

An earthquake swallowed thousands up,
And fire came down like stones,
Which slew their sons and daughters all,
Their wives and little ones.

'T was all about old Aaron's tithes
This murdering quarrel rose;
For tithes are worldly things of old,
That led from words to blows.

A Jew of Venice has explained,
In the language of his nation,
The manner how this fray began,
Of which here is translation:

There was a widow old and poor,
Who scarce herself could keep;
Her stock of goods was very small,
Her flock one single sheep.

And when her time of Shearing came,
She counted much her gains;
For now, said she, I shall be blest
With plenty for my pains.

When Aaron heard the sheep was shear'd
And gave a good increase,
He straightway sent his tithing man
And took away the fleece.

At this the weeping widow went
To Korah to complain,
And Korah he to Aaron went
In order to explain.

But Aaron said, in such a case,
There can be no forbearing,
The law ordains that thou shalt give
The first fleece of thy shearing.

When lambing time was come about,
This sheep became a dam,
And bless'd the widow's mournful heart,
By bringing forth a lamb.

When Aaron heard the sheep had young,
He staid till it was grown,
But then he sent his tithing man,
And took it for his own.

Again the weeping widow went
To Korah with her grief,
But Aaron said, in such a case
There could be no relief;

For in the holy law 't is writ,
That whilst thou keep'st the stock,
Thou shalt present unto the Lord
The firstling of thy flock.

The widow then, in deep distress,
And having naught to eat,
Against her will she killed the sheep,
To feed upon the meat.

When Aaron heard the sheep was killed
He sent and took a limb;
Which by the holy law, he said,
Pertainèd to him;

For in the holy law 't is writ,
That when thou kill'st a beast,
Thou shalt a shoulder and a breast
Present unto the priest.

The widow then, worn out with grief,
Sat down to mourn and weep;
And in a fit of passion said,
The devil take the sheep!

Then Aaron took the whole away,
And said, the laws record
That all and each devoted thing
Belongs unto the lord.

The widow went among her kin,
The tribes of Israel rose,
And all the widows, young and old,
Pull'd Aaron by the nose.

But Aaron called an earthquake up,
And fire came out the sky;
And all the consolation is --
The Bible tells a lie.

- Thomas Paine

Lance

Ish: I beg to differ. Many of those "gifts" do indeed come with the string of a sermon sometimes. Or preaching, or other things.

I do believe there were several native Indians (India, not American Indian) that indeed reported this of Christian missionaries in India. So why shouldn't it be a surprise?

While some charitable agencies do good and so do some churches, we need to fix the tax codes so it isn't an issue. Then you don't rob me and you're free to donate what you like.

I still ask the question...is it God or God's priests that like the 10% rule?

Seems to me Voltaire was right...the first priest was the first con man that meant the first sucker.

That is a really warped view of Christianity that you have, Lance. It's just not that way. You attach the "preaching, or other things" to the giving of the gift which is just plain wrong. I'm involved in church giving. We do the things we do without "preaching". A homeless person gets a meal and an orphan in Romania gets shoes (etc.) without "preaching". If they ask why we give to them, then we briefly tell them. Otherwise, knowing who we are, we hope they simply see the good of God through our actions (not our words).

How can I believe your report? Can you believe mine? A Christian, Indian acquaintance told me once about how dangerous it was when he went back to his home land to tell people about Jesus. He mentioned that several missionaries had been killed! This was stright from the mouth of an Indian. Believe it or not.

Rob you?! Come on Lance, you were probably born into this Democracy like I was. There are ideas out there that you agree with that I don't, and we both have to support them (even if it only amounts to half a cent...). Does that then mean that you are robbing me as well?

It was instituted by God. It is God's meager request of us.

Voltaire was only right for corrupt priests. The majority of pastors/priests today are not con men. Churches are communities of individual believers who decide to give or not to give on an individual basis. The bible makes it clear that we are to give only in the spirit of giving. I and many other church memebers want to give to support our church and the world rather than give because we have to. Churches do not require anyone to tithe, they simply extols the biblical virtues of tithing.

Ish