hezekiah jones

What argument? I haven't seen an argument. Just a slippery apologizer and some excellent posts by everyone else.

Of course reiterating the chronology of the biblical canon is a "blatant assumption." In fact it's a blinding glimpse of the obvious! What kind of criticism is that?

As for accepting the uncomfortable consequences of retrofitting the OT with alleged Christology, sorry John V, but you can't pick and choose which verses do and do not apply to your wacky assumptions. The suggestion is hardly "throwing more stuff against the wall," but completely germane to the discussion. It's all or nothing, Bubba.

James Still

First, let me say (belatedly) welcome to the forum John and I want to thank you for sharing your biblical interpretations with us.

Second, I have to say honestly that what you call "throwing stuff against the wall" is actually a responsible and detailed response to your assertions. I don't think it's fair for you to dismiss them so easily. Are you sure all that "stuff" isn't really informed commentary which is just inconvenient to your religious beliefs?

sighhswolf

James,
I havent read the link you provided,
but I do have a comment, one of the reasons
that the Jewish people have never accepted Jesus as "Messiah" has to do with clandestine activity and selective teaching.

During his trial Jesus is asked by the tribunal to explain his doctrines, and to elaborate on his teachings of his disciples.
He was asked specifically....if he had taught
in secrecy point blank.

He lied.........he told them he never taught
in secret and that he always taught in the Temple.

IMO, To understand the forces at work in the
"miracles" department, you must examine the Hebrew laws.

The God of the Hebrews said that those who witness to themselves are those who look to images and false gods for worship.
It didnt matter what Jesus said or did,
anyone who would put themselves on an even footing with God, took their life in their own hands.

It was strictly forbidden for Jews to worship anyone but God.
God says that he is not a man.
Isaiah, 1 Samuel, numbers and Hosea confirms this fact.

Isaiah 44- 8-11
Fear not neither be afraid have not I told you from that time and have declared it?
You all are my witness.
Is there a God beside me?
Surely, there is no God, I know not any.
They who make an image are full of vanity,
and their treasured things shall not profit,
because they are witness to themselves.
They see not nor know else they would be ashamed.
He who constructs a God and makes an image profits nothing.

In that time, bearing witness to yourself was a terrible crime against God.
Those who would worship through images, or through a mediator are considered as witness to themselves. ( testifying to themselves
so they will feel self-justified in doing what their God had specifically told them not to do).

Orthodox Jews would never worship a man as God via his image, because man is an image of God and that would be Idol worship punishable by death.

"Miracles" were not accepted by the Jewish people because they were looked at as trickery and slight of hand.
Some would even say the performance of miracles, was magic and was forbidden by the laws of God.

Jesus was not God, God is not a man, and the Rabbinic teachings are quite clear concerning anyone who would make a claim to divinity.
"Death" was the result of elevating oneself
to the level of God.

Consider Pharaoh's fate after he proclaimed himself to be God.
"And I will put your flesh upon the hill,
and put into the valley your dead body.
I will also water with your flow of blood,
the land even to the mountains; and the valley shall be full of you."
The book of Ezekiel explains the ramifications of the claim of divinity.

"And when I shall put you out, I will cover the heavens and make the stars of heaven dark.
I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over you, and set darkness upon your land."
"Therefore says the Lord God, "BECAUSE YOU HAVE PROCLAIMED YOUR HEART THE HEART OF GOD"

" Therefore I will bring strangers upon thee the terrible of the Gentiles.
And they shall draw their sword against the beauty of your wisdom, and they shall defile your brightness.
They shall bring you down to the pit, and you shall DIE the death of them that are slain in the midst of the seas."

No Jew of that time period would ever confess to the belief of Jesus being divine, or working miracles.
It was forbidden for the people of Israel, to elevate anyone to the status of God, including Jesus...

Also, the messianic conditions state that the messiah wil NOT be divine.
The true messiah will be a king from the line of David and will be a normal man just like every other.

There were many false "Messiahs" running around in those days and so most people thought very little of tricks of the false prophets and messiahs.

wolf

Vorkosigan

Actually, JohnV, to get back to your comment on the OT and Jesus prophecy, I do not have "stock answers" ready. None are needed. From experience with this kind of thing, I know perfectly well that whatever verse you quote, it isn't going to mention Jesus or anything about him.

Thus, no "stock answer" is necessary.

Michael

Rich

sighhswolf-

You make a case that I have a hard time understanding. Why would Matthew write his gospel account to the Jewish people if what you say was true? And according to some dating it was written as late as 120. If he knew that the Jews clearly wouldn't accept Jesus as Messiah (and hadn't for the last 90 years), why bother to write it?

JohnV

Saying that something could not refer to Jesus because it was written hundreds of years before his birth is merely an assumption that prophecy is impossible.
Thanks, but I doubt I'll be around much. On my usual board the atheists (who are the majority) are more reasonable and tend not to shout down newcomers. Actually, I came here because of a thread there, in which it was remarked that we were all friends in spite of our sometimes bitter differences. I thought I'd see if other boards are different, and I'd have to say from my limited experience that they are. With this welcome I doubt I'd make any friends here.
Yes, I'm sure that almah and LXX rehashes had little or nothing to do with the point at hand.

James, I did answer your question briefly, but you may have missed it. If you'd like to discuss it before I go, I'll continue. Otherwise, I'll let you guys get back to patting yourselves on the back for being so much smarter than the Christians (except for the Christian scholars who agree with you, of course). Theist of the week? I guess so, and I'm not surprised that you get a lot of them.

Apikorus

The assumption that noone has detailed foreknowledge of events far in the future is quite reasonable. If you are going to make the extraordinary claim that the author of Isaiah 7 or 9 was in fact writing about Jesus, then you are obligated to provide some extraordinary proof, which you have not done.

Presumably you would disagree with Muslims who insist that Muhammed is prefigured in the Hebrew Bible (e.g. Deuteronomy's "prophet like Moses") and the New Testament as well (e.g. Muhammed is John's paraclete). On what basis would you reject these claims but support those regarding Jesus?

James Still

Ok, from the beginning. "Critical thinker" wanted to know why the miracles of Jesus had little effect on his contemporaries. JohnV responded with Isaiah 6:9-10 in which God hardens the hearts of his people as punishment for straying from him. Naturally, a lot of folks wanted to know what this had to do with Jesus' miracles, to which John briefly stated:

As any commentary would attest, the context of Isaiah 6 refers to the Assyrian conquests and the eventual Babylonian captivity begun in 586 BCE as punishment for disobedience toward God. Isaiah the prophet wants to know how long the punishment is to last. God answers indirectly that a tenth shall return to start anew. Then in 536 BCE Cyrus conquered the Babylonians and freed the Jews. They returned to Judaea and the temple was rebuilt in 515 BCE and rededicated to God. Thus, Isaiah's prophecy is fulfilled, the Jews have returned to holiness, God is happy, and everyone is happy.

That's it. None of Isaiah has anything to do with Jesus or his miracles. That's why Apikorus stated that JohnV was retrojecting Jesus back into the story. Christians from the very beginning have co-opted the Hebrew Scriptures in order to see some small glimpse of their messiah within it. But these attempts fall apart under critical scrutiny.

[ August 02, 2001: Message edited by: James Still ]

Koyaanisqatsi

Jesus could not possibly be the Elijah/Emmanuel prophesied as he was not borne of human lineage.

According to the myth, Joseph does not impregnate Mary, God does (let's not go into the disgusting trinity ramifications of this), so there is no human lineage at all, even if you drag out the hopelessly inept "lineage of Mary" desperation.

Being borne of a woman means nothing at all to Jewish lineage (other than you're then automatically Jewish) as the line is carried in the man's seed not the woman's egg.

Not to mention the fact that God could not have used one of Mary's eggs without inserting (presumably) one of his own physical sperm; a biological fact of human lineage and therefore a requirement, if human lineage is to be claimed as Jewish prophesy demands.

So, either God's got sperm and did it the old fashioned way, or he ridiculously placed a lone spermatazoa into Mary's egg (which seems needlessly complex), or a being was simply created ex nihilo in Mary's womb.

None of which satisfy Jewish lineage and all of which are the kinds of ridiculous fantasies only mental patients concoct.

So. Anyone for God's sperm?

(edited for formatting - Koy)

[ August 02, 2001: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]

Amos

Quite true from a religious or atheist perspective but if the birth of Jesus was the rebirth of Joseph not only the lineage of Jesus is verified but also the impregnation by God of "the woman" that later was personified as Mary.

No "being" was created ex nihilo because the old Joseph identity was renewed with the rebirth of God into the human nature of Joseph under the name of Christ. Since the old nature needed to be annihilated before the Christ identity could maintain rational existence on earth, the dual nature was present by the name of Jesus. This makes the period that Jesus was present on earth the purgation period during which time the conscious ego identity needed to diminnish while the God-like Christ identity needed to increase (gospels take place in purgatory).

When this transition period is complete the old ego can be crucified and its qualities and learned behavior can be added to the old Christ identity in who's image Joseph was created but was lost when slowly but surely the ego of Joseph was formed and became dominant force in the life of Joseph the carpenter.

So, no eggs, no sperms, just common sense.

Amos