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Old 04-16-2001, 03:04 PM   #11
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Toto:
[B]It seems to me that the analogy would be to those who question the existence of the Angel Moroni, or of Thetans. These entities so obviously do not exist.... </font>
Why?

 
Old 04-16-2001, 04:12 PM   #12
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Layman:
Why?
</font>
Why is it so obvious? Because we know how those religions started. We know that the alleged texts at the root of Mormonism were fakes, and we know that L Ron Hubbard was a science ficiton writer who started his religion as a money making / tax avoidance scheme. We know this with a reasonable degree of certainty - there may be evidence produced later on that makes me change my mind, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting.

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Old 04-16-2001, 04:17 PM   #13
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Toto:
Why is it so obvious? Because we know how those religions started. We know that the alleged texts at the root of Mormonism were fakes, and we know that L Ron Hubbard was a science ficiton writer who started his religion as a money making / tax avoidance scheme. We know this with a reasonable degree of certainty - there may be evidence produced later on that makes me change my mind, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting.
</font>
Besides the fact that you are begging the question, why is it appropriate to compare Jesus (and is referenced by Jewish, Christian, and Roman sources), who purportedly lived on this earth for over 30 years, had a job, and was born of a woman, to Moroni (who as far as I know was only believed to have existed by Mormons), an angel who was never purported to be anything other than a spiritual being?

[This message has been edited by Layman (edited April 16, 2001).]
 
Old 04-16-2001, 05:37 PM   #14
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Layman:
Besides the fact that you are begging the question, why is it appropriate to compare Jesus (and is referenced by Jewish, Christian, and Roman sources), who purportedly lived on this earth for over 30 years, had a job, and was born of a woman, to Moroni (who as far as I know was only believed to have existed by Mormons), an angel who was never purported to be anything other than a spiritual being?
</font>
Have you read Doherty's book or website? I don't want to rehash all of his arguments.

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Old 04-16-2001, 06:06 PM   #15
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nomad:
Did Joseph Smith actually exist? Does Reverend Moon? Did Mary Baker Eddy? How about L. Ron Hubbard?</font>
Of course they did! Hmmm... You've got a point there. They must all be true! Where's my checkbook?

I don't mean to lead the thread too far afield, but I have my suspicions that Christianity itself probably pre-dates A.D. 33. I imagine it began decades earlier, and was later post-dated to the reign of Tiberius. Granted, it's entirely speculation. The existence of Jesus is even more doubtful, as this character's life & death resemble nothing so much as the heroic cycle of an agricultural myth.

Had lunch with Earl Doherty, by the way, at the FFRF luncheon. Deep thinker. Though I probably didn't flatter him much by saying, "I've heard of your book -- maybe I'll get around to reading it someday."
 
Old 04-16-2001, 06:34 PM   #16
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Toto:
Have you read Doherty's book or website? I don't want to rehash all of his arguments.
</font>
What does this have to do with Moroni? Sounds like you are getting off topic.

Sounds pretty conclusory to me. "Here read this, then you'll believe."

 
Old 04-16-2001, 10:19 PM   #17
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Layman - the point of asking if you had read Doherty's book is to avoid repeating it.

We don't try to prove or disprove Moroni's existence because we know he is an imaginary figure. We also know that Joseph Smith was a real person. We live in a society that makes a pretty clear distinction.

Early Christianity was not so concerned about real vs. imaginary. It thrived in a society that viewed the spirit realm as superior to earthly reality. Doherty cites early Christian writers who wrote as if Jesus were entirely in the spirit realm, others who wrote as if it didn't matter. After a few hundred years, Christians developed an orthodoxy, which said that Jesus was a real person.

I am writing from what I remember without researching this. If you want the technical details, go to Doherty's web site.

I don't expect you to believe - you are committed to your view of history, in which a few fragmentary scraps of literary evidence are translated into historical certainty that there was a real person named Jesus. You are entitled to your views, and I have no need to change your mind on this - we live in a free country (so far).
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Old 04-17-2001, 06:52 AM   #18
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Grumpy:
The existence of Jesus is even more doubtful, as this character's life & death resemble nothing so much as the heroic cycle of an agricultural myth.</font>
Really? How many other heroic myths are centered on a poor, humble carpenter who submits himself to his challengers, who teaches his followers to turn the other cheek, who allows himself to be humiliated, tortured, and killed without resisting?

Hardly the powerful king that myth-makers would create to inspire people to follow.
 
Old 04-17-2001, 11:19 AM   #19
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If the virgin-birth story does not make one suspicious of the Gospels as history, then what will? Simply check out

http://www.secularhumanism.org/libra...price_20_1.htm

Jesus Christ fits Lord Raglan's mythic-hero profile *very* well.

As to being humble, considering oneself the Messiah is not what one would normally consider humility. If I claimed that I was the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, would you consider me very humble?

And I note that the Buddha was described as even more humble than JC in some ways; he was described as the son of a great king who turned his back on his old life as a would-be future king to find out why people suffer. And all through his quest, he never called himself a messiah or a good.
 
Old 04-17-2001, 11:33 AM   #20
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lpetrich

Are you going to answer our questions on this thread?

Thanks,

Nomad
 
 

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