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Old 06-21-2001, 10:43 AM   #101
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There are, you will admit, lots of unanswered questions regarding ancient technologies. Even if we can expalin the stone structures away, there are other items that remain unexplained. Which I will come to shortly.
Besides, how come the ancients intricate ways of building were never handed down to us? Look at Egypt - the only structutes that they can boast of are the pyramids - some material they inherited.

How were they passing down this knowledge - and how come it seems to have become "dead" -it seems, that sometime back - we, mankind, had to start from scratch technologically, instead of inheriting skills from the ancients - what could have happened?


People have had to come up with "theories" of how the ancient people built them (the pyramids etc). Herodotus himself only got narratives from the locals, who obviously kept proper records. Much as we claim that the ancients had that knowledge, we cannot explain how they got it.we cant explain (convincingly) Why they did waht they did.

So many questions. So many theories. So many possibilities.

What do all these indicate?

There is a missing piece in the puzzle. Some take a rigid scientific view. Some resort to Von Daniken style, others adompt oversimplified views.

Tell me Michael, how come we did not inherit all this wealth of knowledge from the ancients?

 
Old 06-21-2001, 11:48 AM   #102
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What technology did we not inherit? can we not move large stones? can we not design a calender? chart the motions of the stars? or are you saying that the technologies were lost for a time and have been recently "re-discovered" like the plumbing of Rome....if you mean the 2nd choice the more obvious answer would be that between the talented ancients and we talented moderns, there was a period of time when relgions flourished, dominated government and beat scientific inquiry into a pulp, we like to call that period "The Dark Ages" and for good cause.

Or is there some advanced technology you believe some of the ancient civilizations possessed that we do not?
 
Old 06-21-2001, 04:22 PM   #103
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Jaliet!

I found some more stuff;
a quote from Roger Hopkins (the stone mason who helped PBS try to replicate the building of the pyramids on "This Old Pyramid")
"in 1991 the PBS series NOVA invited me to go to Egypt to experiment with building a pyramid; I quickly got bored with working the soft limestone and started to ponder the granite work. Here in Massachusetts , my specialty is working in granite. When I was asked by the Egyptologists how the ancients could have produced this work with mere copper tools I told them they were crazy and that they were using at least state of art techniques." from page 91 of Chris Dunns 'The Giza Power Plant' Egyptologists insist that the Egyptians had no iron tools despite the fact the iron plates were removed from the pyramids in 1837 by J.R. Hill an assistant to archaeologist Howard Vyse.
They gloss over & cover up even the most mundane details let alone the important stuff:
in 1993 Rudy Gantenbrink discovered another chamber in the Great P. it's been 8 years and still not even a camera has been allowed in! what are they afraid they will find. Poor Mr. Gantenbrink lost his privilleges to poke around the Great P. because he was so excited about the chamber he violated his non disclosure agreement and went (Gasp!) to the press & told the public (Gasp!) A non disclosure agreement to look at and old 'tomb' whats up with that?
http://www.infidels.org/electronic/f...ML/000276.html

Aliens or no aliens these people deserve their Sitchims & Van Danikens, if they want to keep the goodies for themselves and play their silly games, fuck em!
BTW I saw the whole series on PBS on how they tried to duplicate ancient megolith building, they did a very good job with Stonehenge, Easter Island & the Colliseiun, but when they tried to duplicate The Egyptians & Mayans they were godawful, even trying to get a tiny one ton stone into place was pushing their limit, let alone a 60 ton monster, and the Pyramids would still be under construction like the 'Big Dig' if they followed the PBS example.
I won't start on Baalbeck because it's confusing, the Greeks and Roman's put temples there because of a pre existing ancient temple there allready, who moved those 1200 ton slabs seems unclear, the locals claim it was Cain of Bible fame.

Here is another cool site!
http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/g...y%2Findex.html

I'm not 100% convinced aliens are really involved, sinse there are 'some' good alternative explanations, but even now we cannot concieve of what a civilization 50,000 or so years more advanced then us would be capable of, why they might still seem like 'gods' to us.

Ez iel 1:16 Ezekiel 1 Ezekiel 1:15-17 As for the appearance of the wheels and their construction: their appearance was like the gleaming of a chrysolite; and the four had the same likeness, their construction being as it were a wheel within a wheel.
Ezekiel 1:18 Ezekiel 1 Ezekiel 1:17-19 The four wheels had rims and they had spokes; and their rims were full of eyes round about
 
Old 06-22-2001, 02:14 AM   #104
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by nogods4me:
What technology did we not inherit? can we not move large stones? can we not design a calender? chart the motions of the stars? or are you saying that the technologies were lost for a time and have been recently "re-discovered" like the plumbing of Rome....if you mean the 2nd choice the more obvious answer would be that between the talented ancients and we talented moderns, there was a period of time when relgions flourished, dominated government and beat scientific inquiry into a pulp, we like to call that period "The Dark Ages" and for good cause.

Or is there some advanced technology you believe some of the ancient civilizations possessed that we do not?
</font>
As far as I know, the periodic table was first organised in a sensible manner in 1869 by Dimitri Mendelev. Even then, he left several elements out because he lacked enough information. It is over the years that followed that the periodic table was filled to the level we have it today.
Mendelev, I beleive, used all the information he could find and did a lot of research and experiments. If there was this information, then I do not think Mendelev could have been as famous as he is today. He went down the History books and anyone who has done chemistry has heard of his name.
Whats mu point?
My point is this: There have been findings e.g in Russia In the years 1991-1993, gold prospectors on the small river Narada, on the eastern side of the Ural mountains, have found unusual, mostly spiral-shaped objects. The size of these things ranges from a maximum of 3 cm (1.2 in.) down to an incredible 0.003 mm, about 1/10,000th of an inch! To date, these inexplicable artifacts have been found in their thousands at various sites near the rivers Narada, Kozhim, and Balbanyu, and also by two smaller streams named Vtvisty and Lapkhevozh, mostly at depths between 3 and 12 meters (10 and 40 ft.)

The spiral-form objects are composed of various metals: the larger ones are of copper, while the small and very small ones are of the rare metals tungsten and molybdenum. Tungsten has a high atomic weight, and is also very dense, with a melting point of 3410 deg. C (6100 deg. F). It is used principally for the hardening of special steels, and in unalloyed form for the filaments of light bulbs. Molybdenum also has a high density, and a respectable melting point of 2650 deg. C (4740 deg. F). This metal too is used for hardening steels and giving them corrosion-resistant properties, these being used principally for highly-stressed weapon parts and vehicle armor."
I quote from http://home.fireplug.net/~rshand/str.../russcrew.html

"All tests carried out to date give an age for the objects of between 20,000 and 318,000 years, depending on the depth and the situation of the site. (3, 4) But even if it was only a mere 2,000 or 20,000 years, we are faced with the inevitable question: who, of all the people in the world, was at that time capable of creating such superfine micro-filigree objects, something which our own technology is only now just beginning to achieve? "

Check here //home.fireplug.net/~rshand/streams/science/russcrew2.html for the theories given by eminent scholars about the possibilities of nanotechnology being the technology used.

Even the very small grooves that have been found on granite blocks in Egypt etc imply the use of sonic machining or laser processing and electrical discharge machining

If these ancients had all the knowledge required in order to use such technologies - where is the information? all we have are artefacts and stones.

Either someone used these stones and artefacts and left them, or these ancients were very poor recordkeepers - in which case, how did they pass the knowledge? There can be no advanced technology without proper information.





 
Old 06-22-2001, 06:21 AM   #105
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Originally posted by marduck:

Egyptologists insist that the Egyptians had no iron tools despite the fact the iron plates were removed from the pyramids in 1837 by J.R. Hill an assistant to archaeologist Howard Vyse.


The reason Egyptologists believe that the ancient Egyptians used no iron tools is because the quarry sites for the pyramid rock were right on the Giza Plateau next to the Pyramids, and the tools have been found. The tools used there were largely stone, the rocks were shaped by human labor using rubbing, pitting and cracking techniques. After all, the Chinese shaped jade in ancient times, and that is harder than granite rock (and they worked it into complex shapes).

The Nova documentary showed that a small number of unskilled men could easily make the whole Pyramid, and remember the Egyptians knew a lot about moving and shaping rock that we do not.

They gloss over & cover up even the most mundane details let alone the important stuff: in 1993 Rudy Gantenbrink discovered another chamber in the Great P. it's been 8 years and still not even a camera has been allowed in! what are they afraid they will find. Poor Mr. Gantenbrink lost his privilleges to poke around the Great P. because he was so excited about the chamber he violated his non disclosure agreement and went (Gasp!) to the press & told the public (Gasp!) A non disclosure agreement to look at and old 'tomb' whats up with that?

http://www.arvel.com/gatenbrink.html shows how idiotic Gatenbrink and his followers are.

The Pyramid was closed for restoration, not because of conspiracy, and is now open.

BTW I saw the whole series on PBS on how they tried to duplicate ancient megolith building, they did a very good job with Stonehenge, Easter Island & the Colliseiun, but when they tried to duplicate The Egyptians & Mayans they were godawful, even trying to get a tiny one ton stone into place was pushing their limit, let alone a 60 ton monster, and the Pyramids would still be under construction like the 'Big Dig' if they followed the PBS example.

No doubt they didn't do a great job, but then the ancient Egyptians had several thousand years of rock-moving experience behind them when they went after the GP at Giza.

Jaliet,

Technologies are made and lost on an ongoing basis. No one living can freehand the inlay work on the Taj Mahal or command a fleet of ships-of-the-line in battle under full sail. Those skills are gone. In the 1950s a chain of links was pulled out of a tomb dating from the 3rd century AD in China that was an alloy of 15% copper -- and 85% aluminum! (to me this is the most shocking discovery of antiquity). Some unknown genius in ancient China figured out how to make aluminum without electricity, and took his secret with him when he died. This technology is now lost. Even flint knapping is a technology now largely lost -- it is in the process of being rediscovered.

Also, the Egyptians made roads, canals, and many other structures besides the Pyramids. Taken in context with their skills, the Pyramids are hardly unusual. The Central Americans built wider and more massive ones, although none as high.

I won't start on Baalbeck because it's confusing, the Greeks and Roman's put temples there because of a pre existing ancient temple there allready, who moved those 1200 ton slabs seems unclear, the locals claim it was Cain of Bible fame.

The locals may claim as they please, but Baalbek was built by the Romans. If you look at the detail pix here:

http://worldart.sjsu.edu/THA710*1$386*SQ102

It's clear who built Baalbek. The Romans also knew something about moving big rocks.

Also, which is the greater feat, investment casting, or moving big rocks? Remember, when the Romans were building Baalbek, the Chinese were treating hormonal diseases, conducting civil service exams, building a seismograph and experimenting with early cybernetic feedback devices. Clearly the achievements of the Romans were great, but claims about aliens can only succeed if the technical achievements of Asia cultures are ignored completely, since they were vastly ahead of the west by the time of Christ.

Michael
 
Old 06-22-2001, 07:13 AM   #106
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"The Pyramid was closed for restoration, not because of conspiracy, and is now open."

I know the pyramid itself is open again, but as late as 2000 Hawass was promising to have a look inside that new chamber Rudy found, a small camera would fit under that door at the end of the chamber.
From: EGYPTNEWS@aol.com
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999
Subject: National Geographic to participate in the exploration of the Pyramid Shafts

In April of this year Dr Zahi Hawass gave a lecture at the University of Pennsylvania declaring that the
further exploration of the Queen's Chamber shafts would take place in January 2000 in co-operation with the
National Geographic Society. During a recent lecture, at the UCLA, Dr Hawass confirmed that the National
Geographic would be participating in this project but a more practical date would be sometime before May
2000. Sources indicated that a complete exploration of the northern shaft would probably be carried out
before any attempt to probe beyond the 'door' in the southern shaft.

Although no further information is available at this time, EGYPTNEWS will update its subscribers as and when
we receive further news. Meanwhile, list members interested in the historical exploration of the Great Pyramid
shafts can visit Rudolf Gantenbrink's website at http://www.cheops.org/. Readers should also keep an eye on
the website of Dr Zahi Hawass' at http://guardians.net/hawass/ and the National Geographic
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ for additional information.
 
Old 06-22-2001, 08:34 AM   #107
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The pyramids in Cairo were not the first and only pyramids to be built. There are "practice" pyramids all over Egypt that are even older. Saqqara was a "step" pyramid - later steps were filled in (as mentioned in Herodotus). The South Pyramid at Dahshour was messed up and its plans were altered mid way through. Here is a website where you can see description and the "evolution" of the pyramids over time.

Honestly, I don't see how some of you can talk bad about what Christians believe and then turn around and claim that aliens may have built the pyramids in Egypt... Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black, IMHO.

Ish

[This message has been edited by Ish (edited June 22, 2001).]
 
Old 06-22-2001, 08:46 AM   #108
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" Honestly, I don't see how some of you can talk bad about what Christians believe and then turn around and claim that aliens may
have built the pyramids in Egypt... Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black, IMHO."

I for one, don't claim that aliens built the pyramids, I'm saying many ancient texts speak of how humans were taught civillization & science by beings who came to earth from the 'heavens' ie. outer space.
 
Old 06-22-2001, 09:03 AM   #109
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Turtonum,
First, I think that Egyptologists survival is dependent on people beleiving that the Pyramids are tombs.
I could be wrong though.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The reason Egyptologists believe that the ancient Egyptians used no iron tools is because the quarry sites for the pyramid rock were right on the Giza Plateau next to the Pyramids, and the tools have been found. The tools used there were largely stone, the rocks were shaped by human labor using rubbing, pitting and cracking techniques.
</font>
rubbing, pitting , and cracking techniques? To produce equidistant 0.3mm grooves?
I think that you are now losing credibility.
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
After all, the Chinese shaped jade in ancient times, and that is harder than granite rock (and they worked it into complex shapes).

The Nova documentary showed that a small number of unskilled men could easily make the whole Pyramid, and remember the Egyptians knew a lot about moving and shaping rock that we do not.

They gloss over & cover up even the most mundane details let alone the important stuff: in 1993 Rudy Gantenbrink discovered another chamber in the Great P. it's been 8 years and still not even a camera has been allowed in! what are they afraid they will find. Poor Mr. Gantenbrink lost his privilleges to poke around the Great P. because he was so excited about the chamber he violated his non disclosure agreement and went (Gasp!) to the press & told the public (Gasp!) A non disclosure agreement to look at and old 'tomb' whats up with that?

http://www.arvel.com/gatenbrink.html shows how idiotic Gatenbrink and his followers are.

The Pyramid was closed for restoration, not because of conspiracy, and is now open.
</font>
The pyramid was closed to hamper the discovery that Gutenbrink was about to make.
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
BTW I saw the whole series on PBS on how they tried to duplicate ancient megolith building, they did a very good job with Stonehenge, Easter Island & the Colliseiun, but when they tried to duplicate The Egyptians & Mayans they were godawful, even trying to get a tiny one ton stone into place was pushing their limit, let alone a 60 ton monster, and the Pyramids would still be under construction like the 'Big Dig' if they followed the PBS example.

No doubt they didn't do a great job, but then the ancient Egyptians had several thousand years of rock-moving experience behind them when they went after the GP at Giza.</font>
They were simply using a wrong approach. It could not be done the way it is theorised to be done by people like you.
The experiment proved it. What more do we need - years of experimenting? Oh, please.
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Jaliet,
Technologies are made and lost on an ongoing basis. No one living can freehand the inlay work on the Taj Mahal or command a fleet of ships-of-the-line in battle under full sail. Those skills are gone. In the 1950s a chain of links was pulled out of a tomb dating from the 3rd century AD in China that was an alloy of 15% copper -- and 85% aluminum! (to me this is the most shocking discovery of antiquity). Some unknown genius in ancient China figured out how to make aluminum without electricity, and took his secret with him when he died.
</font>
You are telling us that one can produce considerable amounts of electric power - and smelt iron - solo? I am really beginning to doubt you my friend. He knew how to make aluminium and decided not to tell anyone? oh please.

So we are looking at cases of unknown geniuses who decide to go to their graves with their inventions?
Very funny!
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> This technology is now lost. Even flint knapping is a technology now largely lost -- it is in the process of being rediscovered.

Also, the Egyptians made roads, canals, and many other structures besides the Pyramids. Taken in context with their skills, the Pyramids are hardly unusual. The Central Americans built wider and more massive ones, although none as high.
</font>
The pyramids may be unusual to you but the fact is that people who have tried to build themmanually have failed. Thats why they are unusual.
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
I won't start on Baalbeck because it's confusing</font>
I am glad that you agree.
http://worldart.sjsu.edu/THA710*1$386*SQ102

It's clear who built Baalbek. The Romans also knew something about moving big rocks.

Also, which is the greater feat, investment casting, or moving big rocks? Remember, when the Romans were building Baalbek, the Chinese were treating hormonal diseases, conducting civil service exams, building a seismograph and experimenting with early cybernetic feedback devices. Clearly the achievements of the Romans were great, but claims about aliens can only succeed if the technical achievements of Asia cultures are ignored completely, since they were vastly ahead of the west by the time of Christ.

Michael
[/QUOTE]
I looked at the links - roman art in architecture and one monolith. The monolith, I'd say is a misfit in that picture because all the other pictures were showing images of work that can be done using chisels and hammers.

 
 

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